Cobbing describes the first time he used words in a non-semantic way (1959). Now does no belive that there are any distinction beween music and art and poetry and dance. He indicates that he does not notate his sound poems because "every shape one sees on a page, conjures up a sound - any sound one hears conjures up a pattern, a mark on the page. Ross asks Cobbing about his sound scores [abstract markings] and how he reads these marks. He cites Norman McLaren who drew a sound track on film. McLaren stated that "a thin line will give you a high sound, a thicker line will give you a lower sound. If you make a little tiny point it'll give you a high 'ping,' if you make it a rounder blob, a biggr blob, it'll give you a 'boom'..." Cobbing indicates than when he makes marks on paper, he writes in sound. Cobbing tells about a painting he made that was exhibited in a library entitled "Integration alone is not enough" (1962/1963) in which Margaret Thatcher, then a local representative saw and pronounce it obscene. She told the librairian that it was obscene because it was full of sperm! -- Source of annotation: Marvin or Ruth Sackner.